CMDR Dantae said:
You are also scaling Balmung and Clarent to Vasavi Shakti, rather than the reverse. Which is rather backwards. If with their showings, Balmung and Clarent can match Vasavi Shakti, it's only natural that Excalibur, which has similar showings to both, can also match all three.
Note that Excalibur is a piercing attack, not a continuous beam. It causes enough damage to destroy a city as a by-product of it passing through it. Think of it like a railgun. While Caladbolg destroys space in a general area, Excalibur pierces through it.
I suppose that doesn't actually prove it has the same power as shown here, but note that even Excalibur only stops it for a brief moment when he uses it at full power in the Visual Novel.
Actually, I would flat out argue that Balmung either has a lower yield, or even is weaker than Vasavi Shakti, and that Sieg won the beam clash not because of superior power, but either because of mystery, the fame boost from being in Europe instead of India, or even just the circ*mstance of fighting an inhuman opponent of much greater power matching Siegfried's own legend, and thus giving him the conceptual force required to win.
Though, it's hard say for sure without reading the novel myself.
I find it rather interesting to think about.
There's also the rather amusing prospect that Karna could kill Servants in the lower tier scaling's just by activating Vasavi Shakti.
Senko said:
And that doesn't mean you can say x is stronger because they look more impressive visually.
See AlsoTYPE-Moon/Nasuverse Feats/General Thread - People Die If They Are Killed EditionThe Version 2.0.0 Dragon Marked For Death Update Lets You Have Two Save Slots And Visit The Black MarketI mean to begin with, you do know these inconsistencies exist even within just that isolated piece of work, right? Like Karna and Siegfried fight though large hills and yet their physical equals in Chiron and Achilles don't exactly smash the plane they're fighting on in one hit, and the latter itself could only do it with his chariot.
It's fiction, I can say what I want about it. In canon, A rank is always A rank, yes. However, to a degree these various stories aren't even in the same universe with Fate Stay/Night alone having three different timelines, and even Fate/Zero being very different from how the Visual Novel said the 4th Grail War actually went down.
As for inconsistencies within the same work, could you link the specific fight you are talking about? What do you mean by plane here? I assume not an aircraft.
I personally think this fight was probably affected by their legends, which would explain why it looks a lot more visually impressive than all of the other fights in the anime. However, I'm pretty sure they should be able to cause a lot more destruction than Achilles and Chiron anyhow. Chiron gets past Achilles invincibility with his divinity, not firepower, and neither of them have the Dragon Mana Reactor Siegfried does, or the powerful Manaburst Karna uses. Not to mention Sieg received a skill from Berserker that gives him more mana.
I suppose another way to interpret it, is that the other fights were dialled down to make them easier to animate.
Mr Sheldon said:
One of the Nemo marines was reporting her speed from the Storm Border's scanners and he stopped giving hard numbers at Mach 2. After that Da Vinci confirmed her acceleration was unaffected by air pressure and temperature (might be wonky official EN translation), and that her wings ignored inertia.
Thank you. That explains it clearly. If she can ignore air pressure (I couldn't remember if it was ignore it completely or partially), then she has no top speed. MACH 2 is fairly low since we are talking numbers of MACH 70 or so for A rank, but assuming that she wasn't accelerating at full burn at that point, and that she was avoiding wasting energy, which you wouldn't need to if you can ignore inertia and flip around on a dime, it fits quite well.
Senko said:
Bingo.
That's what's mentioned in the LN, more specifically a room that warps space that makes it larger on the inside. We can assume the same thing for the anime.
The manga fight was the one where they were outdoors.
Would this affect the calculations? If the rock Karna melted looked larger because it was being spatially warped, would that potentially explain why their fight appears more striking and powerful than other fights in the anime?
RIZKI said:
That's just headcannon. Mystery doesn't really do things that you describe it does, as it was never stated or shown that a bigger "mystery" of the same type NP has different effects compared to an attack with weaker mystery. An example would be Quetzalcoatl who's 65 million years old has an anti fortress NP that's basically a big boom (meteor that killed the dinosaurs) and it has no known piercing effects.
It is headcanon, and it's also supported by every single piece of canon. Take the beam clash between Sieg and Karna here. It should be multiple Gigatons of energy minimum, yet the effects on the ground around them are far less than the mere activation of Vasavi Shakti. Or how Saber using Excalibur on Berserker should have caused a massive explosion comparable to a nuclear weapon if it can destroy a city.
Also, my argument wasn't that higher mystery means less firepower, but rather than it focuses the energy instead of wasting it. The clash between Karna and Sieg didn't have any less power than activating VS, we just didn't see the effects because there wasn't much waste energy.
RIZKI said:
But the main reason why the clash doesn't cause big ass explosions anywhere is because both beams are focused on the beam to maximize attack power, kinda like how basically any beam clash in other anime's don't cause huge explosions to happen around them.
That's basically what I said, but phrased more clearly.
RIZKI said:
Well yeah im not saying that excalibur can't briefly contend with VS. Just that if limited to the OG FSN era the power of Excalibur would be insufficient to deal with Vasavi Shakti or any of the other big beam NP's. The same goes for EA really, its best feat at the time is vaguely scaling above excalibur
I disagree, but fair enough.
RIZKI said:
I don't recall it being ever said to be a piercing beam? Far as i remember in the VN it was just a very condensed energy wave/beam but its been a while since last read em so i could be wrong. But the anime (which nasu supervises iirc) depicts Excalibur as pretty much just a regular energy wave that can explode like what other beam NP's in the series (Rhongo, Balmung, Clarent etc).
The visual novel says that only the point of the beam is the attack. The beam we see is just an after affect.
Heavens Feel seems to show a different usage with Excalibur Morgan, but Excalibur Morgan isn't technically being used in it's true form there. She's basically using absurd amounts of mana to charge mana burst so that her attacks are A rank and can break past Berserkers Godhand.
